Future-Focused Leadership: Balancing Today’s Needs With Tomorrow’s Vision
Season 5, Episode 12
Guest: Jason Dunn, CEO, National Coalition of Black Meeting Professionals
Are leaders making decisions that will build a brighter future? Jason Dunn, CEO of the National Coalition of Black Meeting Professionals, discusses how leaders can navigate the balance between addressing immediate challenges and preparing their organizations for a sustainable, future-focused success.
[Related: Jason Dunn Stands Tall for Black Meeting Professionals]
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[Related: Black Meeting Profs CEO Jason Dunn on the State of DEIAB in the Meetings Industry]
Meet Our Guest
The National Coalition of Black Meeting Professionals (NCBMP) selected Jason Dunn as its new CEO in October 2023. Dunn has long been a trailblazer and outspoken diversity advocate within the industry.
While at Visit Cincinnati, he became the CVB's first Black vice president in its 79-year history and played a pivotal role in bringing diverse conventions to the destination. During his tenure, the number of multicultural/diverse meetings in Cincinnati has represented more than one-third of all CVB new business from 2008-2018. He also led and created Visit Cincy's Diversity & Inclusion engine, Vibe Cincinnati, which amplifies the Cincinnati region's culture through art, entertainment and immersive multicultural experiences.
Dunn's leadership also included the development of the Dan Lincoln Institute for Hospitality Leadership, which works with Cincinnati public schools, colleges and local hospitality businesses to build a pipeline of diverse talent within the industry and led the ground breaking 2018 report of the Cincinnati Music Festival’s $107 million economic impact to the region’s economy.
Dunn left his post as vice president of diversity, equity and inclusion after 18 years of service at Visit Cincy for the new position of CEO at NCBMP, where he has been tasked with taking the organization to new heights in its mission to educate and empower event professionals throughout the world.
In addition, he has fostered partnerships with organizations such as MMGY Global and the Events Industry Council to conduct research on the economic impact of Black travelers and the state of diversity within the global meetings industry. Dunn noted that NCBMP has been at the forefront of the industry's diversity dialogue, and he plans to continue to lean on strategic partnerships with MPI, PCMA and Destinations International to drive change.
Dunn served as chair of the Southwest Ohio Regional Transit Authority, where he helped the organization improve access to jobs, broaden benefits to employees, increase accountability and enhance planning. Through his leadership, a ballot initiative was put in place in 2020 that invested $1 billion to improve regional transit infrastructure.
He is the immediate past chair of The Greater Cincinnati Northern Kentucky African American Chamber of Commerce, which is the largest African American chamber in the Midwest.
He and his wife Tiffany have two beautiful children, his daughter Mya, who currently attends Spelman College, and his son Jason, Jr., who is a fifth grader that enjoys playing football and basketball. Dunn is a member of Omega Psi Phi Fraternity, Inc., and a Prince Hall Mason.
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More About Our Host
Courtney believes that transforming past experiences into impactful conversations through raw, authentic storytelling challenges the status quo, connects people from all walks of life and results in great change for the world.
Courtney is the youngest member to have ever been elected to Meeting Professionals International’s (MPI) International Board of Directors.
She is the recipient of Smart Meetings’ Entrepreneur Award, MeetingsNet’s Changemaker Award, the Association for Women in Events (AWE) Disruptor Award, the MPI Chairman’s Award and MPI RISE Award.
Named Collaborate and Connect Magazine’s 40 under 40 and a Meetings Today Trendsetter.
Recognized as one of the event industry’s most impactful change-makers, Courtney serves on the Events Industry Sexual Harassment Task Force, AWE’s Board of Directors, MPI’s Women’s Advisory Board, is a Meetings Mean Business Ambassador and is the co-founder of the award-winning movement, #MeetingsToo.
Courtney was named as a 2020 Meetings Trendsetter by Meetings Today.
Connect with Courtney:
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Instagram: @courtneyonstage
Twitter: @courtneyonstage
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Transcript:
Editors note: The following transcription was facilitated by AI program Otter.ai and proofed by our editors. Although it is very accurate, there inevitably will be some mistakes, so please consider that when reading. Thank you.
Courtney Stanley
Hello, everybody. This is Courtney Stanley, and welcome to another exciting episode of Dare to Interrupt, the only podcast made by women for women in the world of events, hospitality, tourism and beyond. We hope you feel empowered as you listen in on honest, unfiltered conversations with leaders who are considered to be the most influential, inspiring and innovative women in business today.
Throughout their careers, these leaders have dared to interrupt conversations, their own comfort zones and sometimes even societal norms, to hustle toward their greatest levels of success.
Every December for our final episode of the year, we like to change it up and add a male perspective to our interview series. I personally could not be more excited to welcome today's guest to the show here with us to close out 2024, Jason Dunn, CEO of the National Coalition of Black Meeting Professionals. Jason, it's great to have you on the show. How have you been, what's going on any plans for the holidays?
Jason Dunn
So, all is well. We'll be in Las Vegas for Christmas. My father-in-law lives there. So, we'll be there relaxing and maybe taking some Derby rides or something like that. So, we'll look through some other things outside the Strip, just relax a little bit.
Courtney Stanley
Okay, outside the Strip—I feel like the industry never goes outside the Strip—so that's going to be fun for you. Okay, that's pretty cool. Do you typically go to Vegas for the holidays, or this is something different?
Jason Dunn
Like I said, my father-in-law lives in Vegas, so we usually go there often, and for Christmas anyway. And then for New Year's, we are in Columbus, where we're originally from, to watch the Ohio State game—always watch Ohio State game… and then we usually cook here for Thanksgiving. So it's kind of a big deal. We stay here in Cincinnati, then we go to Columbus for New Year's, and then Vegas for Christmas. So, we're a little bit, little bit all over the place…
Courtney Stanley
And Jason, you know, I live in Detroit, right? You know that I live in Michigan. What happened?
Jason Dunn
First of all… first of all, let's have a good conversation. All right?
Courtney Stanley
Well, we'll leave the past in the past…
Jason Dunn
But I will say, congratulations. We didn't show up. You guys showed up. You earned it. Congratulations and but, but we are going to the championship. You're not…
Courtney Stanley
Oh, my goodness, it's okay. You know what? I actually am more of a Michigan State fan. So, I'm okay. I'm okay with Ohio State taking some W's every now and then.
Jason Dunn
So, my sister-in-law played basketball at Michigan State, so that's cool, too. Family. See, we're family.
Courtney Stanley
Oh, yeah, we'll always find some common ground, that's for sure. Well, I would love to just give the audience an opportunity to get to know you a little bit better. Would you share a little bit about your journey in the industry, where you've been and where you are now? Because I know you've had some big changes over the years.
Jason Dunn
Yeah. So, I started off and, well, how far do you want to go back?
So, you know, so far as the industry wise, I started in Cincinnati when I was in college. There was a lot of political unrest during the time of 2001, and while I was in school, I was kind of a little more active in the activism side than I currently am.
Now, I've kind of slowed down a little bit, but on that side of the school, I was one of the ones who was lobbying to not come to Cincinnati—tourism, conventions, concerts, speakers, etcetera—because of the unrest and what that meant to the community which I served and grew up in. And so Vice Mayor Alicia Reece, who's currently a county commissioner at the time, was over the Tourism Committee for the city, and she asked me to come in and help coordinate or create a reception for what was a national Underground Railroad Freedom Center, which is a museum that gives a narrative, a story about the trans-Atlantic slave trade, and its roots to Kentucky and Ohio, which the Ohio River separates.
So, when that opened up, she asked me to plan a reception because of the local people who were against bringing tourism to Cincinnati to prove a point that, you know, until there's equity, they cannot support the city. And so, the reception was for local persons. And at that time, the National Coalition of Black Meeting Planners, which I didn't know what it was—had no idea what it was. And so, the vice mayor asked us to invite the board in from the NCBP—and at the time, it was planners, not professionals—and my role locally was to get local people involved and to greet them in a way that they felt like the city was welcome, and local folks were giving them permission to come to the city.
So, there was some equity and traction happening internally or locally that allowed folks to at least come to the table with some sense of mutual agreement. And so we brought them in, and the convention bureau was given a grant from the city, and at the time, National City Bank, to actually put this event on because they wanted the city to move forward. They recognized how important tourism was and the impact it had on the city, and so I was asked to come in and plan it.
So, we came in plan it, brought our team in. Again, I plan parties and things, such as in college. So, it was of a new twist for me. But she knew my work, and I knew her father from being a Prince Hall Mason, and that kind of weaved me into the fabric of the community. And so short story. So, put that together for the bureau.
At the time, I was working with Julie Calvert, who's now the president of the CVB there; she was the vice president of communication. So, it was me and her and a couple other folks who came together to create the reception. We did it. We brought folks in. It was a success. And then the convention bureau at that time, which was led by Allen Welch. I believe he was a retired Proctor and Gamble executive on loan.
He was running the convention bureau because the past CEO had left. And so, he called me in and said, “Hey, man, I want you to consider coming to Cincinnati.” At that time, my wife had moved back to Cleveland to focus—she's an anesthesiologist or CRNA, which is different things. And so I went to Cleveland for a little while, and then they called me and said, Come back, offering a job. And so, I got the job … and I started in 2004 and worked my way up and became the first Black vice president there, and brought all the conventions back that had left during the unrest, and also created several educational programs or schools that focus on hospitality outside of the typical roles that you may see people of color, which are cooking and cleaning and valeting cars, which is nothing wrong with that, but there's no opportunities in the space per which we now love, right?
And so I became the board chair of the National Coalition of Black Meeting Planners—again, before it changed. In 2020—full circle during COVID, kind of led us through that unfortunate time, in addition to the George Floyd scenario. And then so after the murder of George Floyd, as I was the chair, I focused really on, how do we bring everybody together? And so, we begin to reach out to MPI, PCMA and Connect, and some others, where we had some partnerships aligned with NCBP that focused on equity. One was the EIC task force that was created that focused on, where is the current industry at when it relates to race, and how are we dealing with that, and how we focus on equitable events, and how to make sure your organization is being equitable to and processes, etcetera.
The second piece of PCMA—we had a dual membership with PCMA—where we focused on making sure our members had the opportunity to go to PCMA and vice versa, because often times vice presidents of CVBs or hotels or their associations pigeon holed persons based upon what they believe the stereotypical roles were planners or people who were on supplier side, not necessarily from the characteristic skill set, solely based upon their gender or color.
So, they were stagnant. Our partnerships allowed them to go between the associations and NCB, etc., to get that that kind of diversity of thought and access. It's same thing with MPI, and so we do a membership with them. We focus on a couple of projects together where we wanted to show that we can compete at every level, and it's not just because of our skin color or because of our gender, because we deserve the right to compete, and oftentimes we're the best, but don't get the opportunity to show that or say that.
Then with DI Melissa Sherry was their COO, I believe, when this happened, and we created, what they currently have is the report card, or kind of the assessment individually, where CVBS look at their ranking, how they're spending their money. Are they focused on various levels of diversity efforts? Is it this biodiversity? How are they hiring the board, etc.?
And so those things are the things that we focus on to ensure that the success is there, that's longevity in the pathway for things. And so then, after I became the board chair, he told me to keep going.. And then, full circle, I came back in 2022, after leaving the convention bureau for 18 years, to become the first executive, well, the second exec, third, executive director of coalition, and then was promoted in ’23 as the first CEO of the Coalition of Black Meeting Professionals, of which I currently serve as CEO. And so, that's kind of where I am right now, Today. I skipped a lot of years, but you got 30 minutes, so I don't want to be talking all the time.
So, that's my story and I'm sticking to--how about that?
Courtney Stanley
I think that's good. Yeah, I think you should stick to it. It sounds like a great story so far.
Even just reading your bio before our conversation today, it seems like one of your personal missions and professional missions, too, is to really create substantial change within the industry, whether it's at a local level or now maybe at a more global level, with different strategic partnerships that you're nurturing.
What do you feel have been some of the most successful parts of these partnerships that you've created or you've maintained with groups like PCMA and MPI? What do you want to still work on? What do you want to see change?
Jason Dunn
I think for me, the greatest achievement I can say, is watching other people get the opportunity to be in rooms where they thought they couldn't be in, and then two breaking down stereotypes or misperceptions of the way that we do business in the categories of which we achieve.
And so, as I step back and look at, you know, what departments we develop, what those projects or programs or incentives or strategies or however you want to categorize them, have come to light, it has awakened the industry to a point where you can't say you don't know. It has ushered in opportunities of engagement with the mutuality of increasing the importance of tourism, but also elevating its significance to a community, and so in all communities. And so, for me, just to see that achievement, seeing the inspiration in the folks’ eyes, where they have the confidence to walk into a room and say, “I'm supposed to be here,” and then the metrics that prove not only are we supposed to be here, but I can do the work and get people to anybody else. And so those opportunities are, frankly, what keeps me up, but also keeps me going, because often times, a lot of diversity efforts are equity or inclusion, or how we want to name it, are based, are stemmed in performative efforts, and not necessarily efforts of someone's skill set.
And so, I've learned to fight that. I've learned to build around it, to crush it as often as I can, but at the same time, disrupt the thought process that folks are just in the room because of the pigmentation and agenda, but they’re in there because they deserve to be in there, and they've earned it, and they have the skill set to compete at every level, and so that's what gives me the greatest joy
Courtney Stanley
So we've, like you said, the work, there's been a lot of work that's been done. We're at a point where the industry can't really turn the cheek and say, we didn't know. You know, this is news to us. Are there battles that you feel are more uphill right now as we're going into 2025, when it comes to diversity and equity in our industry?
Jason Dunn
Yeah, so I think this is a moment of truth, a moment of true character, but at the same time political sophistication. And what I mean by that is we get that many CVBs, hotels or associations are funded by different resources, and I keep politics for a second, and we understand that there are going to be contentious battles as relates to how folks feel or don't feel about the current culture for which we are going into ’25 and beyond.
However, here's the reality. The reality of this is, demographics are changing. The world is changing. Consumer bases are changing, and we have to find a way to make sure tourism is in the middle of making sure there's mutuality in growing together. And I think understanding how, to be a part of a conversation, but at the same time, there also has to be some grit and some willingness to fight and not fight in a way that you're yelling and screaming each other, but fight with facts, fight with truth, fight with metrics and fight with some type of common ground to get to a solution or achieve something that helps not just us currently, but the next generation of people who represent our industry, association, supplies, etcetera.
So, I'm cautiously optimistic about it, but it also is going to test the fortitude of many of our leaders, and we'll see. But I'm hopeful that people can stand on facts, data, truth and ROI to see that it makes business sense to make the best decisions, to make sure people are all of all of you, efforts, gender, et cetera, are at the table having discussion and moving forward together.
Courtney Stanley
When you talk about data and metrics, and you're talking about these conversations that you're having with leaders, what do you feel is the most important data point to communicate to industry leaders in conversations about making progress with equity?
Jason Dunn
Yeah, so I asked a simple question: will you be relevant in 20 years?
Courtney Stanley
I love that question.
Jason Dunn
I mean, look at the stats for yourself. I mean, will you be relevant in the next 20 years? Meaning, is your consumer base, your membership, going to align with the decisions that you're currently making, and are you setting up your association, your hotel, your CVB, your municipality, etcetera, to be relevant in 20 years with the base that you're building?
And I'm not talking about cultural politics. I'm not talking about that, right? I'm saying what people want to do business with your organization when you’re on the right side of history that will sustain over time, and usually they're not expecting that question; it makes them think. And some folks, because the ego gets involved, you know, we'll say, I had to focus on right now. That's fine.
And if you have a right now type of spirit, you're going to have a losing later spirit in 20 years. And so, you know, and some folks, it may work for them, but some people may not.
So, I'm betting that people should make decisions based upon what is their long-lasting strategy to be relevant 15 to 20 years from now, right? And will your consumer base that you're appeasing today be the same consumer base in 20 years? I argue that it won't be.
Courtney Stanley
I love the question of relevance, because I think, to your point, I do think the ego can get in the way when it's a short-sighted vision. But I also think that a lot of times, leaders get stuck in the weeds of the problems that they think that they have today versus the problems that they can't necessarily see down the line without some consultancy, without some different perspectives coming in and saying, “Have you thought about things this way?”
Even just looking at our industry and, generally speaking, taking DEI and putting it to the side for a second, I think our industry has, I think—there are some changes that our industry would benefit from making today for the next 20 years. So, I don't know that I have seen a ton of change within our industry. I think we, and I've, been in the industry for about 15 years now. Looking back when I started in the industry, it seems like it's kind of the same song and dance it has been, where it's the same type of conference, you're seeing the same speakers. We've seen some changes being made, but I still think that we're a little bit slow to adopt a change.
And I think 2020 was a very exceptional year for the industry, because we were forced to actually take faster, longer strides than we normally would. Do you think that our industry will ever be on the earlier-adopter side, or do you think that we'll always be a little bit resistant to making some of those significant changes that would actually benefit our future?
Jason Dunn
So, I think that not to be, to be cliche is, anytime we meet, we change the world. I do believe that, however, I agree with you that change is slow. I also agree that it depends who we are positioning to be our leaders, and if the leading organizations who have been the pinnacles of our relation, of our industry, for decades, are stuck in their ways, then maybe there's movement to shift to whom is the next association that is leading to ensure. That we are relevant and moving quicker into, your words, making longer, quicker strides. And so I think there's an allegiance, because some of the acronyms have been around for so long that they are the pendulum. And I guess if you would agree, that kind of sway to move the industry one way or the other.
So, I think as young folks begin to take leadership and other associations, as you see a lot of folks saying, “Okay, I'm kind of done with this group. I'm going to start my own group.” I think that will push people to make decisions and make them quicker. But I also believe that that comes from us listening to our current membership, and our current membership, not really being not understanding the shifts in political, the political culture that we're currently living because we haven't had to.
We're kind of an insular industry where we don't really focus on the outside things. We talk to each other. And so, I think we'll have to shift our thinking to really understanding what's happening outside of the four walls that we currently meet in. And then how do we apply that internally? And then, are we still still the pillars that we see ourselves as in the current culture? And so, I think, again, we have to understand that balance, that tourism, unfortunately, is political, politics and forces in tourism.
Tourism and politics equals culture change, right? And so, we can't have one without the other, or can't have two, not the third. So, we have to balance ourselves out and understand what that really means in a holistic perspective. And once we do that, I agree with you that we will begin make the longer strides and make them quicker.
Courtney Stanley
When I think about leadership, I don't think about just the people who hold the formal positions within the organization, but I also think about the boards that are supporting the executive leadership teams within these organizations. What do you think the room should look like when it comes to a board?
So traditionally, or even as of late, we've seen, I've seen and read, about stricter qualifications to sit on boards within the industry. So, you have to have a certain title, you have to have to have a certain number of experience, those types of things. Do you think that that is beneficial, or do you think that there could be opportunity in looking at things a little bit differently when it comes to leadership,
Jason Dunn
If you allow me some grace and answer the question…So I think it's complicated, because there's some organization where you want the experts and the titles to be on the board, because you wanted to stay guided on this mission. There are other organizations where you need a diversity of thought, because it represents your membership, represents or reflects different types or categories of professionals, but as long as we have a commonality in the mission, and you believe in the mission, then it makes sense.
But the issue that some organizations have is that there's been a same type of person, regardless of the title or the expertise, has been the same type of person, who may just be on there because there's a status and what the personal benefits are, not for the benefit of the organization. And I think that's where I believe the complications are coming into where you need to get some of these old folks—not in an age way, but old folks who are old thinking….don't get us in trouble, old thinking, old thinking—and/or balance them with some younger perspectives.
Again, they had that balance to move organization forward. So, there's nothing wrong with having seniority and status and a title. But as long as there's a mixture or a balance of such, I think is better for the organization, a whole more interesting question.
Courtney Stanley
Yeah, it definitely does. I think where I struggle is when there's a hard and fast qualification on paper. Because I'm very much somebody who believes in bending the rules. I don't think that it has to be one way forever, and I don't think that if there's somebody that walks through the door that maybe doesn't have the traditional title that's on paper set as a qualification, but they bring so many things to the room, that there should be objective barriers to entry. So, I think that's where I struggle a little bit. And I've seen our industry go backwards. Where the boards were, in my opinion, and from my experience, in some organizations, were more flexible and did have different types of people sitting around the table.
And over the last, I would say, year or two, I've seen organizations move in a different direction. Where now we're seeing the same type of person sitting around the table, but we're also seeing on paper that there are different qualifications that make it more challenging for somebody that has a non-traditional background or different types of experience to come in. So, I agree with you. I think it depends on the organization's mission and also depends on the membership, you know, having a board that reflects that.
My hope is that we swing back the other way, because I do think we've taken some steps back, and it's just tough to see. And I think the reason why I appreciated your question around relevance is because, to me, it is, first of all, doesn't make sense. But secondly, I think that it's such a short-sighted way to run an organization if you want that organization to have a future.
Jason Dunn
I think to piggyback. What's another word for piggyback? Just to agree with you on something like that. Sure, yeah. Then how about that? To agree further with you, I think you gotta say too, some of this stuff is political, right? Meaning that some folks get people on their boards with titles and influence. One, they want their money, right? Two, they bring relevancy to the board, because people are struggling with, you know, can you move policy? Can you make things happen? Can you call somebody and get a check right?
And so, a lot of these people are being selected for the resources, not because of their qualifications for the resources and to give credibility to whatever organization that the current person is running, or wherever it is, right? So, sometimes you gotta kind of pull the layer back a little bit and say, “Okay, they picked these people because they want their money. Two, they went through an influencer. Three, they wanted to say they had somebody on the board that is a president or a CEO or etcetera.
And so, some of that stuff you write is fluff, um, and some of it is, frankly, malarkey based upon people to your points inability, who wants to do the work but can't because they can't get past the gate.
But I do think there has to be a balance. You need focus, money on the board. You need folks with credibility and that can bring some relevance to your organization. You also need some work with these too, and some folks who have ideas that can help both sides.
And so, I think that's just who's in the room writing the policy to get folks on the board has to be a diversity of thought. And I think that's really what we're agreeing to, saying that people are fighting for their relevancy. So, they're going back to the days where titles matter, resources matter to show that you're somebody, because this person stamped you, and I think that's the… I agree, it's just a long way to go. Mm, hmm.
Courtney Stanley
Well, I hope people are tuning in.
Jason Dunn
Let's go. There's some good changes. Are you saying I'm boring? Are you saying I'm boring? Is that what you're saying?
Courtney Stanley
I'm not saying that you're boring. I'm saying that there's some good stuff here that I would like people to hear. So, I hope that people actually tune into this and I'll make sure that they do.
But Jason, I'm curious, as you know, you mentioned earlier that we're at a very interesting point in our society right now, going into 2025 with lots of different things happening, lots of changes being talked about and potentially coming down the pipe.
What do you think are the most important skills that leaders need to have with all of these changes that are coming?
Jason Dunn
I think patience, the ability to…so, patience to be a good orator, the ability to communicate in a meaningful and authentic way, an empathetic narrative or messaging to their members or those folks who follow them.
I think the third piece is a plan, meaning organization, a plan, because it's going to be a roller coaster, up and down. And you have to be able to just be sturdy at the wheel, which means you have to have a plan to refer back to when things are difficult. You gotta go back and be the set. Are we on plan? Are we on target? Are we on goal? Right?
And I think fourth, understanding, which means you have to listen to really be aware of what's going on around you and then be able to respond if need be, or to sit and watch and let things play out based upon what your plan says and the way that you communicate it, in addition to you being empathetic or having empathy toward your membership or your stakeholders. So, I think those four or five things I think are important in the next couple of years.
Courtney Stanley
I love that you use the word empathy, and I think one of the keynote topics that I share is all about empathy and leadership, and how to develop more empathy and lead with more empathy. But what's really interesting is that a lot of research says that, most times, leaders feel that they're displaying forms of empathy, or acts of empathy for their teams, for their members. But on the other side of the coin, a lot of, majority of times, employees do not feel that it is genuine, or they do not feel that there is empathy at all for the people who are on the employee side, who are working for different types of leaders, if they're not feeling like they're working for leaders who are patient, who are strategic, who are empathetic, what advice would you give to them?
Jason Dunn
Well, again, I would, I would step back and ask myself, if I was in a situation, is this my feelings, ego? Is it my everyday issues or barriers that not allow me to hear the empathy in my leader's voice, because I'm dealing with the issues in my face that deal with my life directly, and I think once you step back and determine if that is not the case, then I would ask that person to really do some research and understand what the company's values are, what the company's core values are, what the mission is, etc. And have they asked the question for clarity from their leader on what does it mean by this, and ask to talk to them.
And if you can't talk to them, send them an email and ask the question, say, and ask them what's on your mind, not in a way that you're accusing or being combative, but say, I would like more. Can I talk with you? I think there's some questions I would like to hear. And I think I heard you saying this, could you elaborate with blah, blah, right? And I think if, if you're able to decipher through the response or non-response, then I believe you follow your heart.
I'm extremely cognizant of humans’ ability to have discernment. And oftentimes your intuition is not wrong, but you gotta separate your intuition from your emotion. There's two different things, and I think that once you go through the process of separating your emotion and then going through the work to listen to your intuition, I think you make the best decisions. And if you consider or determine that your leadership is not being authentic, then you have to make decisions if you want to stay with that individual company, if it makes sense, based upon your current situation.
And I think that's all you can do. So, that's all you can't do, because I think many of us stay too long and we're in conflict with ourselves, and it's not good for mental health. And I've been through that several times where you work for a leader who was not authentic, and you have an internal fight, and it's not good for you. And so, I would always listen to your instinct and follow your heart and then make sure that you have a backup. And don't be stupid. Don't jump out there and don't have a job. Oh, that's right, that's right. You gotta have a balance. You gotta have balance. Gotta have balance.
But you know, you gotta understand where people are at and try to understand where they're saying and then find ways to align with your heart and passion.
Courtney Stanley
How do you tune into your intuition? What does that show up like,
Jason Dunn
I keep folks around me who believe in the mission of the organization, who have a good sense of discernment, who are rooted in some type of spirituality, and have performed in ways that are loyal to the calls.
And so, I say folks are a reflection of me for whom I hired. They're smarter than me, but they're reflecting far as the alignment of the passion of which I exude for the mission or which I'm working on, right? And so, if it doesn't feel if I'm in conflict with myself, that's often an indicator that we should tell me is right. Alert, right. Alert, Red Alert, right. If it doesn't align, if I don't feel good about, if I can't sleep at night because it doesn't feel good, then then that bothers me. And if my wife tells me I'm talking about it too much, usually those are three indicators that I usually follow.
Courtney Stanley
No, I think that's really great advice, and I think that's very relatable. I know, for me, it definitely is, and I think for a lot of our listeners, it probably is too.
I want to ask you one final question before we close. We've talked about a lot of different things today, but looking ahead…So, this is the last podcast episode of the year. People are going to be tuning in. They're going to be looking for maybe some advice, some inspiration, some comfort, some motivation.
What is one piece of advice that you give yourself at the end of every year before you step into the next year?
Jason Dunn
Yes, but first, because I'm not perfect by any stretch of imagination, but I do have a spiritual foundation, and so I often reflect upon where I was the year before. In the same time frame, I often reflect on where I came from, meaning the journey to where I am, the current day that I'm thinking like today, that I'm thinking about… I look around me and I have peace in my family. I have my sanctity in my head, the limbs of my arms, I can move around and think.
And what I often do, as I go through for years, I ask, ask God, or whoever you serve. I serve Jesus Christ, and I say to him, I say, “Let me live a life for purpose. All the steps that you have, that you have ordered me into this point, allow them to guide me to what my next step is, or my next journey will lead me to approve or to achieve what you want me to do. And at the same time, let me influence impact and inspire those around me to see the light that you've cast on me, and if I do that, at least try to do that in the right way, hopefully that I've lived up to my purpose, of which he set me on the right pathway.”
So again, I'm not perfect. I’ve had a lot of mistakes in my life, made a lot of mistakes, but I am human, but I am still grounded in a spirituality, and I still believe that whether I achieve it or not is different, but I still believe that, and I would tell folks to walk in your power, walk in your light, and remember where you came from, and there's more time for you to do better, and next year is just, is that time. So, make it count.
Courtney Stanley
Mm, make it count. What a beautiful message to close out the conversation. And I have to say, so my favorite guest to have on the show is somebody that I don't know that well, that I'm very intrigued by, that I'm curious about, that I've kind of, I've just seen, there's an energy, there's a vibe, there's an energy.
And Jason, you really have been one of those people over the past few years. I've interviewed you maybe once before. I've interviewed you at Cvent CONNECT, yes, exactly. We've passed in the hallways, you know, a couple times, but there was just always this light. And so, I appreciate when you say that.
You know, you want to really shine that light on other people, the light that you have, and that's something that I've picked up on from you over the years. So, it's there. You're exuding this light, and it's been such a privilege to be able to share that with the audience through this conversation.
So, thank you so much for being a part of this.
Jason Dunn
Well, thank you for being a leader, and so, that reflection is there, too. So, you have the light as well. Um, you've always been nice, kind. Always said, “Hello.” Your energy is bright and beautiful.Thank you. Thank you so much. I wish you well, your sixth year coming up, you know, let's, you know, knock it out. Knock it out. Make it count. Kill it. Make it count.
And so if you need me. We got you. You’ve always got a friend in the Coalition of Black Meeting Professionals and have got a friend in me. So, whatever you need, call. We got you.
Courtney Stanley
Likewise. Thank you, Jason, thank you so much. I hope you have a happy holiday season, and I can't wait to see you next year.
I also want to thank our audience for tuning in to the final episode of our fifth season of the show. Your feedback throughout the years and again this year continues to inspire us to ask important questions and engage in meaningful conversations with phenomenal leaders in our industry.
Share what you learned from this episode with us on social media by following at @MeetingsToday and @CourtneyonStage, and be sure to never miss an episode by subscribing to Dare to Interrupt on any major podcast platform. Make 2025 count, lead with empathy and keep daring to interrupt my friends. Until next time.
